Episode 54 - Assessments That Support, Not Stress — Three Guiding Questions

Are you assessing your clients or just reacting to what you see?

In this episode of Three Questions, I unpack the difference between observing and actually assessing and why that distinction might be the missing link in your results. Because noticing something isn’t the same as understanding it, and when we skip that step, we often end up chasing the wrong problem.

I share how I think about assessments as a way to guide direction, not prove answers, and why the best assessments don’t simplify the body, they help you ask better questions about it.

In This Episode You’ll Hear:

• The key difference between observing something and actually testing it

• How to create assessments that guide decisions instead of guessing outcomes

• Why isolating variables (not adding more cues) leads to better results

The more intentional you are with what you’re assessing and why, the less guesswork you’ll need and the more confident your next step becomes.

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Transcript

Meghann Koppele Duffy: Welcome to Three Questions where critical thinking is king, and my opinions and research are only here to support your learning and deeper understanding. Hey, I'm your host Meghann, and I am so honored you clicked on Three Questions today so we can talk about assessments. And I know it might not sound like an exciting topic, but I think by the end of this episode you'll either be, you know, curious to change your assessments.

Or kind of look at them in a different way. So let's get right into question one, and I wanna ask you, what is the difference between observations and assessments? So just think about that for a sec. What is the difference between observations and assessments? And before I even go even deeper into this, everybody sometimes define words differently.

So I just kind of wanna talk about how I see the differences here. And you might be like, Hey, Meg, how you described observations, that's what I'm thinking about assessments, and I know words are important, but I feel like having a deeper understanding and honestly thinking about what we're actually doing more important.

So recently we were, I was giving a lecture to our advance mentees. For my other business, the Neuro Studio. So every year we allow teachers to apply to get into our advanced mentorship where they kind of work with Mariska and I directly. And during the recent lecture on assessments, I realized something, they're not bad at assessments, but I think what they were using for assessments were actually just observations.

So let me explain how I define observations or things we observe or see or take in. Like as soon as somebody walks into my studio, I can kind of observe their demeanor, their mood, how their body's moving, if they're in pain. Now these are observations, and if I'm being honest, I think sometimes we let our observations lead to assumptions.

Now don't take that as a knock. I, I mean, I see myself do it too. And when I hear students saying, well, when my client walked in, I assessed that they were in a bad mood. I go, how do you know? Well, their face and demeanor. Okay, but these are observations. Could that not be telling the true story? For example, sometimes when we're in flow state or in a position where we're learning.

Taking in or thinking we might have, um, a frown on our face or basically a flat face. I warn all my students about this when I'm taking their classes. When I'm focusing on my own body, it looks like I'm mad, and I noticed this and I brought this to my students' attention because if they're teaching me and I've got this s scowl on my face, I don't think it's a s scowl, but maybe it is.

That's gonna totally get in their head and think, oh my God, Meghann doesn't like this. And they might overthink something when in fact, my facial expression has nothing to do with my mood. It's the fact that I'm really concentrating. And if you've ever been accused of having a resting bitch or dick face, you know what I mean?

And I want you to think about it. When people say that about you, are you listening? So think if you're having a conversation with someone and they're thinking, oh my God, this person look at their, Ugh, what an attitude. Maybe that person's actually just listening to you. So I think, could we all be honest that we take a lot of observations and create assumptions based off our own personal experience?

I mean and if you disagree with me, I'd have to question your awareness to what's going on because we all do it and it doesn't make us bad people. I remember Rhonda, my therapist, another shout out to Rhonda. She said something to me once that made me so mad. She said, you sure do assume what Brian's feeling a lot.

My husband. And I was like, no, I'm not assuming. I know I know him. And she's like, mm-hmm. Maybe you could ask him. And it really bothered me because I think I'm a pretty intuitive person. I take in the room, I can assess things or am I actually observing? And she actually was right, opening up the dialogue and not just going by my observations.

I would actually ask Brian questions more and while I was onto something, I was assuming the reason. So just some food for thought. Identify what your observations are on people and maybe rather than assuming the situation or how they feel, ask follow up questions. So that leads me to what do I deem an assessment?

And guys, that's a really hard question to answer for me, an assessment. Is like a test in school, right? So I'm testing or assessing your knowledge of a topic. And again, because I study education and that's what I'm getting my doctorate in, that's important to me. And we can also say that sometimes our assessments don't give us a clear indication of, um, understanding or awareness.

This is why I hate multiple choice tests. It's only, um, actually testing kind of the beginning levels of understanding, doesn't test critically thinking. And if you're someone who sucks at multiple choice tests, you're probably a critical thinker. Has this ever happened to you? You're taking a multiple choice test and you're like, oh, this is definitely the answer, but wait, what if blah, blah, blah, blah.

What about this? And you overthink. Which is why they tell you to go with your first instinct because multiple choice tests aren't geared for critical thinking. They're geared to say, do you understand this concept? Can you recall this concept? And for me in my work, if you can just recall concepts and spout out all the theory and literature or the evidence-based stuff, but you don't truly understand it, critically, think about it or able to get your clients to do it.

That don't impress me much. Right. So let's go back to what is the difference between observe observations and assessments? I want you to think about it. I'm gonna think about it, and for me, an assessment is going to give me a direction, not a clear answer, but a definitive direction to go in from there.

What I do, I work in movement. I assess my assessment. So lemme give you an example. A client comes in, they're doing a movement, they're doing all this weird stuff with their head. Lot of cervical spinal movement. Well, I'm gonna first assess their four quadrants. I'm gonna look up what's happening in their shoulder.

The glenohumeral the most mobile joint in their body, and I notice that isn't moving at all. Okay. That's interesting. So maybe all that facial movement, that cervical spine movement is happening because it has to, because they don't have any mobility or awareness at the most mobile joint in their body.

So I'm, my assessment took me to the shoulder joint. Now I might do some stuff with the shoulder joint, and as I'm moving the shoulder joint, I realize, oh, this shoulder joint can't move. Their lat is a bit locked down, something's funky going on under the chain and I can explore there. However, if I just use my observations of their cervical spine is over mobilizing, they're looking around the room.

That was an observation. And if I work on that, I'm at the risk for subtracting, not adding, if you know my work. You know what I mean? But I'm not gonna assume, you know, my work. Work. What I mean is a lot of times we see undesired movement, ugh. You're lifting your shoulders, you're sticking out your tongue, you're moving your jaw.

Stop doing that. Let's get them to stabilize that area and not move it. Well, we've actually had the, we might have subtracted, meaning we took away their movement pattern. If I don't give the brain another option, then they kind of can't move at all. And we'll see this in clients. You see a dysfunctional movement pattern.

Or you see maybe a problem with your children. You correct that immediate problem, but then their movement, they're barely moving, or the child is shutting down, they're talking less. Hold on. We allowed our observations of the scene act as an assessment to tell us where to go next. Now, maybe that resonated, maybe that didn't.

To make it even simpler to me. An observation is something that catches our eye, something we notice first. Why does it catch our eye guys? Probably 'cause it's the biggest thing. Okay? What's the first thing you notice when you see somebody you love, or your spouse or a friend? You usually see their best qualities or their biggest quality, right?

So if you see me, I, people always love to tell me I'm much smaller in person. I, I don't know if that's an insult or a compliment, but that's an observation you're making. Well, maybe online, you hear me, my loud voice, I can be a bit demonstrative. I walk around like I'm six six, but then when you see me in person, you're like, whoa, she's much smaller.

Okay. That's an observation. Now a, a true assessment is wondering, why does Meghann talk so loud? Okay. You might wanna fix that and tell Meghann, or excuse me. An observation with that would be that I talk really loud. You might observe that and ask me to lower my voice and work on my jaw and my tongue to help my vocal volume, except you didn't do an assessment.

And the reason I talk very loud is I don't realize I talk really loud because I have some auditory processing issues, okay? So because of that, I have no idea that I speak at a loud volume. You know how I know I speak at a loud volume. I have learned to observe others. So when I'm talking to you, if I notice you lean back a little bit or your face makes a, you know, I'm sorry.

I'm assuming everybody's watching on YouTube. I made a scrunched face that's telling me, Meg, you are too close to them. You're too loud. Back up. Take it down a notch. Okay, because I don't hear it or feel that I am a close talker, and this might crack up. My friends and family reminded me of a story of my friend Kate at a family barbecue.

Uh, my parents used to host this big barbecue, and my college friends all come down. Kate walks back to the group and I think Cheryl or Marybeth said, what's wrong? And Kate goes, oh my, I, I'm soaking wet. I just got caught in the crossfire between Meghann and Mrs. Koppele. Listen, chickens don't make ducks. So we, after a few cocktails, my mom and I, our uh, our ability to, uh, notice spatial distance and talking became a problem.

So now that you know that both my mother and I get too close and spit after we've had a few drinks, note that when we're in public. Now, back to the question at hand. You might be thinking right now, Meg. I think I'm assessing what I'm just observing. What do I do? Ay ay, this is the eternal question. How do we create assessments for us?

Now, I've created quite a few. I created my four quadrant stability model. The reason why I created that was because I hate static assessments. All right. Do this now. Test that. I'm just like, but that's, there's so many other variables there. I wanna see what's happening when the client's moving. So I had to create an assessment for me so that I knew where to go next.

And I really encourage you to learn that assessment model or create your own. So how do we create an assessment model? Well, let's go to question two. What are you actually assessing? So your first question should be, what am I assessing here now? Let's not get confused with observations. I know all you movement people, you're great at observing things.

Take all your observations into account and maybe ask yourself, rather than assuming all those observations, ask yourself, why is that all happening Now? For me, I create an assessment model fixing foundations first before fixing these small little joints and moving patterns. Which honestly I was pretty good at.

I always got good results. However, when I realized, hey, if we don't fix Meghann's auditory processing issue and how she hears volume, she's never gonna talk softer. We can give her all the strategies in the world, and I try, I do my best. Okay, I have a microphone here yet. I still project project as if I don't have a microphone.

Feel bad for Joe, my sound guy. He's gotta listen to me yelling at him all the time. Sorry Joe. I'm doing my best now for the assessments. I looked and I remember my friend Shante said to me when she was helping me brand my assessments, why? Why these joints? Why, why the hip joint, why the shoulder joint?

And she was like poking me like a bear. It was pissing me off. You know why I didn't have the words? And I finally just yelled at her because they're the four most mobile joints in the body that nobody's using correctly. And she said, what do you mean they're not using correctly? I said, I don't like those words.

Excuse me. It's not that they're not using them correctly. They're not using them, period. And she said, what do you mean? I see people moving their shoulders and hips? I go, no, no, that's not what I mean. Tell me what you mean. I said, what I'm observing is when people try to move their glenohumeral, they also are mobilizing their spine and their jaw and they're not noticing, I feel that we call it a joint differentiation issue, but to me it's a brain mapping issue.

She said, say more. I said, well, all these joints are next to each other on the body. And I even said, Hey, see when I move my fourth finger, my other fingers move. There's smudginess in the brain map. She said, continue. And I'm, now, I'm getting really annoyed and. Why I was getting annoyed is she was poking at me to get my words out and I said, listen, I think we can do all the joint differentiation exercise in the world.

You can give all the hip exercise in the world, but unless there's awareness at your brain that you're moving other joints with the hip, we're actually not fully mobilizing the hip. And when the hip can't fully mobilize or it's stuck with other joints, it's not gonna stabilize. And that's a problem. And she goes, boom, you got it.

And I said, you're annoying, but that was amazing. I'm grateful you're a friend and a mentor to me, and that's what I wanna do with you guys. What do you need to assess? And I decided, I wanna assess that first. Clear up the big problems, and see how it trickles down. You might say to me, Meghann, that's stupid.

I don't care. That's why I can guarantee results. Okay, come in for a session, I'll show you. You might say, Meg, this is more important to me. I need to see what the foot does or the spine does first. And I say, great, create an assessment. How are you gonna determine what is wrong with the client or what needs to be changed?

That's the challenge, my friends, and that's what I'm encouraging you to do. And when you look at all the assessments we learned in school, I can break each one apart or put them together because it's not the assessment that's the problem. It's the application, it's the hands-on. It's getting good at it.

People will learn an assessment. If they're not good at it, immediately they give up and they blame the assessment. I think that's weak sauce. I think you need more practice at it. And if you wanna be a master or get master, it's something you've gotta keep doing it. I'm thinking of, um, another friend of mine, Anna, she's known as the MovementREV..

She loves to, um assess the SI joint, which I love, and people come after, oh, that is not a good evidence-based assessments. It's not reliable. And she's like, yeah, 'cause you suck at it. Maybe she didn't say that. Maybe she did. She was like, yeah, I'm really good at that assessment. I can tell everything I need to know from that.

And please, I am, um, not. I am probably screwing up Anna's words. I don't want to explain her assessment, go to her to learn her assessment. But what I loved is she was like, yeah, that assessment doesn't work because you're not good at it. And I know that sounds harsh, but it's true. She's dedicated time and observation and hands on and feeling for things and not being afraid to make mistakes.

So don't just learn Anna's or my assessments. Learn them because they're great. Create your own. That might be even better. But I want you to ask yourself, what am I assessing here? And do, can I create a hierarchy from this assessment? Okay, so what do I mean by that? A hierarchy when you observe a million things.

Oh, I observe my client's gait cycle. Gait assessments are observations, guys. They're not assessments, and I will die on that hill. Okay. Okay. How you walk is based off what's available to your brain and body and based off the sensory input, we all have a unique gait cycle. Can we break you? You could break apart everybody's gait cycle.

Nobody walks correctly or perfectly. We walk based off what we have. Something Mariska and I like to teach is these are the requirements of gait. See what your person has and doesn't see if it can integrate them with multiple senses. So for me, I'm not going to obsess about thoracic mobility if my client can't mobilize their hip fully.

The hip has to mobilize more than the spine, depending on the movement. So my hierarchy is go to the most mobile joints first and see how things trickle down. Always assess the sensory environment, and we are never looking for answers in my assessments. Every exercises assesses what to do next. So I'm not looking to say I was right.

I'm a scientist. I'm always like looking to prove myself wrong. Okay, I think it's the shoulder. Let's go. Let's do it. Whoop. Yeah, there was a problem at the shoulder, but the driver was from elsewhere. And guys, we can create a story about the body. Everything's connected. So making statements that your f your pelvic floor and your foot are directly related is correct, but false.

Everything is related. Every part of your body is going to be dependent on your feet, but also your feet are dependent on the rest of your body. So making these grando statements, I just have to eye roll, not because it's stupid, but you are confusing people and not giving them the full story. Okay, that's my opinion.

You have yours and I encourage you to have your opinion, but when you have an opinion, I want you to back it up with scientific evidence, peer reviewed studies, and dedication to your assessment show people explain and teach them how to do. And you might be like, Meg, I don't wanna teach other people how to do my assessment.

I just wanna be great at my assessments. That is awesome. I love that. And I'm telling you, if you dedicate to that and just keep looking and breaking down your assessments, your results, your outcomes are going to be so much better. Because you know what? You're not seeking this external satisfaction.

You're in it, you're curious, and staying with the process. So this leads me to question three. What variables might be influencing the output of the assessment? So the result of the assessment, what I want you to look at with your assessments is, how can I isolate a variable here? How can I isolate a variable?

Variable? And, excuse me, sorry for my pause. You know how I am with auditory. It's like my neighbor, he's power washing and mow his lawn. Two annoying sounds. So Joe, have fun editing that out. Anyway, back to the task at hand. Are there too many variables here? So go back to your observations. Too many variables.

How can we isolate variables? Go back to science when we are creating a study, oh my God, I'm doing one right now for my dissertation. Every time I look at it, I find another variable and I'm like, yeah. How can I account for that? How can I accommodate for that? This is the challenging part of our work, but this is the fun.

Get in the weeds, get curious. I wanna encourage you that you don't have to have all the answers to me. If you have all the answers, that's gonna make me question you. Okay? Have a definitive viewpoint and then assess. So let's look at, I'm just using my four quadrant stability model because I know an in and out.

So when I'm looking at that. I'm observing the body. I'm looking at certain variables I want to identify should the primary sensory input be proprioceptive visual or vestibular based? Now we don't even have to go there. You might be like, Meg, stop talking narrow to me. I'm more comfortable with just movement.

So we could look at proprioception. Are you creating a change at their skin, their largest sensory organ? Are you using pressure? Pressure would indicate kind of where joints are collapsing or where there's excessive movement. I don't like collapse. Sounds bad, but where there's excessive movement, you could also use some two point differentiation cues to help the brain.

Now, what are all these variables doing? They're filling sensory gaps so the brain can create change. That's how I look at it. I also like to look at what are the joints I'm trying to differentiate, and I'm very specific. So don't just tell me you're doing a hip differentiation exercise. Pilates community, let's update the education here. What are you differentiating the hip from the other hip? The pubic synthesis, the SI joint, huge problem or the lumbar spine? I feel like there's a lot of focus on lumbar spine and hip differentiation. So my non-movement people, what we see a lot of is when people move their leg, they also move their spine with it.

But what a lot of movement people don't realize is that spinal movement happens because the other hip is also mobilizing. So their pelvis moves around their legs, which forces the spine to move, see how complex our jobs are. So when you're trying to differentiate a joint, be specific. I'm trying to differentiate it from this to that.

And you might be like, Meg, I have no idea what I'm trying to differentiate here. There is a lot going on. There's so much movement dysfunction. So you know what I'm gonna say? Hey, if there's a little bit of errors in a lot of little places, maybe that's a result. Maybe let's take a step away and look at the whole elephant.

So I always say to my students, step back, step back. You're staring at the elephant's butt. Step back, step back. And they're like, oh, this is why when students send me videos, I'll be like, Hey, put a cl a towel on your client's neck. How did you know to do that? Meg? Well, first of all, you told me everything that didn't work, and as soon as I turned on the video, your client scratched their neck ev about seven times in the video.

Now that is an observation, not an assessment. So I took my observation of that. They were scratching their neck and then I observed and I assessed the cervical spine. And when this person was lunging, their cervical spine was mobilizing. Was it mobilizing a lot? No. How did I assess it? I looked at the spine, looked at the ear in relation to the shoulder, and every time they lunged, when they stood back up the ear would bob towards the shoulder and come back up.

So I'm not bad mouthing observations guys. I observe everything. This annoys my husband. 'cause he's like, why do you care what that person's doing? I'm like, I find it fascinating. Okay. I take my observations and then assess it. Because my observation told me they were scratching their neck because they were searching for sensory input or maybe they just had a rash or an itch or maybe their hair was growing in.

So I assessed the spine and I saw the spine wasn't stabilized. So I asked the student to add sensory input to the neck, and voila, the lung completely changed because the brain did not realize the spine wasn't stabilizing 'cause it was so subtle. When the towel was around their neck, the brain felt that the head was moving.

We didn't even have to tell the client what to do with the towel bonus point if you don't have to explain it. Okay. Now, based off that comment, I'm just going to clarify. No, I don't tell clients why I'm giving a sensory assessment. If it works, then I explain it so there'll be value and we can relate because that's gonna help their motivation on trying it again.

Okay. I always say this to my teachers, don't give a whole freaking song and dance an explanation about why you're touching the pelvis in the rib. Just ask them to do it, and if it makes a change, then dig into it deeper. Okay? If your client wants you to touch them or there's permission there, just put your hand on something, see if it changes.

Okay. I do this a lot with bunions. I'll just touch the person's bunion, see how their body responds if they push into my hand or pull away from my hand. That is an assessment. Looking at a bunion is an observation that's telling me somebody's not spiraling. When I touch the bunion, it's gonna tell me if they're over spiraling or if they're trying to avoid sensory feedback.

Okay, so just to follow up on question three, I want you thinking when you're doing your assessments, what variables might be influencing this sensory. Emotional, environmental, all these can be a factor, but I will stand by this. I'll die on this hill too. I'm dying on a lot of hills today. If some a sensory input is influencing output in a positive or negative way, we can change it.

If it's in a negative way like pain, we have to come up with a sensory input that can change and not distract the brain. Pull focus. Now if you don't have good sensory input to the body, the brain is always gonna go back to previous experience. This is why it always hurts when I do that exercise. You haven't even done it yet.

Well, our brain is already preparing for that. We already have those sensations. So say somebody's in pain, we've got to change their neurological focus. Now if they're still in pain, well, we just assessed. We can use pain as an assessment. When I give this sensory input, maybe I give a visual cue. Have my client use their peripheral vision.

Ow still hurts. Okay. I just assessed if peripheral vision is going to focus their brain. It did not. How did I know that? They're still in pain and pain is an output. Cool. So to wrap a bow around this, 'cause I kind of, there was a lot of words. I kind of, you know, I did a Meghann here, but let's summarize. I want you to think about, are you confusing observations with assessments?

Don't be mad at yourself and do not discount observations. They are critical, but they can be very distracting. And I see it with all my teachers. They make a lot of observations. I'm like, yes. And. But what about that? And they were like, oh my God, how did I miss that? Because you were so obsessed with their mood and their demeanor, and their face, and the fact that they were limping.

You did not look at why that was happening. So take your observations and ask a question. Can I create an assessment to test my observation? Boom. We could start right there. Let's make this simple. Observe something and assess if your observation was correct. It could be as simple as a question. It could be as simple as touching someone with permission or giving a different sensory input and see what happens.

Or we can create assessments and decide what we're actually assessing. So for me, have that role play that Shante and I had. Why is this important to you? Why is, why are you assessing that joint? Why is that important to you? How is this gonna affect this? How is that affecting the output? Keep asking yourself questions, get in the weeds, come up with words, and just like I did.

No, no, that's not what I meant. That's not what I meant. And I love motivational interviewing here. It annoys my students all the time. They'll say something to me and I repeat it right back to them. No, no, that's not what I said. Okay, explain to me what you said. I'm just repeating right back what you said to me.

But what often happens is when you hear what you said, you realize that's not what I meant. And it's not an argument thing, it just offers ability to clarify. And if I could be so bold, I think we need to offer people the opportunity to clarify, because sometimes the words we say have different meaning in between us.

So you might have been thinking. Oh my God. I feel like all I've been doing is observing. I'm a terrible teacher. First of all. Cut that right out. If you're observing, you're an excellent teacher, an excellent parent, an excellent spouse. So many people don't observe anything. They're oblivious. It's like, can't you tell that person is struggling?

No. Why? So if you are someone who observes a lot, keep observing, that is amazing. But I'm gonna challenge you. I don't like, but. Can I rephrase that? What I would've liked to say is I want you to keep observing and see if you can assess your observations or ask yourself why that is happening and assess that.

I want you to be clear about what you're assessing, even if it's silly to you. Why is it silly? It's not silly. If it was important to you, assessing any part of the body can give you a better place to start. And I promise you one thing, if you take a little bit more time thinking about your assessments, the flow of your sessions are gonna go a lot better.

I think sometimes we over plan or overthink because nobody taught us how to assess and this is a challenge. And last but not least, when we're assessing, I know it's annoying. Don't look to always prove yourself right? Maybe crack some holes or poke some holes into what you're doing. I'm telling you. I, my brain, my, how my brain works is I don't understand why everybody is so afraid of being wrong or always having to be right.

I think there's more power in being like, man, I saw it here, but it led me there. Also, the, my favorite part of the brain, the cerebellum works on movement corrections, okay? So if your cerebellum is not sensing a movement error, it's not gonna kick in. So making errors is important. The key to making errors is stop repeating them.

Bringing awareness so that we can change that movement era. Alright, I threw a lot at you today, but I wanna put a but there, but this doesn't have to matter to you. So if you listen to this and say, you know what, I love that for Meghann and other teachers, but that's not how I work. I applaud that. I, I would like to ask you why.

I want you to ask yourself why it doesn't matter, because maybe you're focused on something else or maybe you don't think you are competent enough to do that, and I'm gonna tell you right now, you are wrong. We are all have the ability to assess whether we're an expert at movement or language. We're just really looking for understanding.

Did that person understand? What I just said, and a simple assessment is maybe asking a question. I say this to clients a lot and I've heard somebody say, you should never say that. Shut up. I'll say it to my client After I explain something, can I ask you if that made sense? Logistically, I felt like it was a little wordy and I'm not sure I was clear there.

And they'll say to me, no, no, it made sense logistically. I just don't know how to do it. And I said, okay, let's dig into that. So I'm not asking my client if, did that make sense to you? As if they're stupid. I'm asking them, did that make sense? Logistically, step by step, because I'm trying to explain it in a way that it's meaningful.

I'm not sure I did. That's a great assessment, asking questions or you can assess joint mobility or SI or whatever you wanna do. The key is understanding what the answer you want to receive from the assessment and once you work backwards. Understanding what you're trying to learn, the assessments become that much easier.

So I'll leave you with that and I hope you have a great rest of your day and maybe observe a little more today and assess your observations and please let me know how it goes. And I have one more thing to say. Oh my God, that was such a good closing. I do want to offer, if you are having trouble. With your assessments or figuring out what you mean, reach out to me Sometimes just talking through this stuff and talking out loud is all that you need.

All right, I'll see you guys on the next episode.