Three Questions with Meghann Koppele Duffy

Episode 30 - Getting Straight with Spinal Health with Suzanne Martin

• Meghann • Episode 30

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What if the key to spinal health isn’t about “fixing” the curve but understanding the person behind it?

In this episode of Three Questions, I sit down with Dr. Suzanne Clements Martin, physical therapist, dancer, and contributing author to Pilates Applications for Health Conditions, to explore what it really means to support spinal health. From scoliosis to hypermobility to everyday asymmetries, Suzanne shares how curiosity, not correction, is the foundation of real change.

You'll hear us talk about:
✅ Why “no side bending or rotation” might be doing more harm than good
✅ How visual, vestibular, and fascial systems influence spinal alignment
✅ Why every spine tells a different story—and how to listen more closely

Whether you’re a Pilates teacher, physical therapist, or just someone navigating back pain or spinal changes, this conversation will help you rethink what “getting straight” actually means and why true alignment starts with understanding the whole human, not just the spine.

More About Dr. Suzanne Martin

Dr. Suzanne Clements Martin, DPT, is the founder of Pilates Therapeutics LLC and a pioneer in applying Pilates to clinical populations worldwide. With over 40 years of teaching experience, Suzanne blends art and science through her 3-E approach, ergonomics, exercise, and emotion, across her specialty tracks in spine health, women’s health, foot management, cancer recovery, and performing arts enhancement.

A physical therapist, NCPT Pilates Master, and author of Spinal Asymmetry and Scoliosis and Pilates Applications for Health Conditions, Suzanne is known for her evidence-informed, human-centered approach to movement. She has presented internationally for organizations including PMA, IADMS, and DANCE USA, and served for over 25 years as lead physical therapist and wellness consultant for Smuin Contemporary Ballet.

She and her husband, Tom, live in Marietta, Georgia, with their two beloved guinea pigs, Onion and Snake Snack.

Resources mentioned:
Learn more from Suzanne at Pilates Therapeutics
Get the book, Pilates Applications for Health Conditions, HERE! (use code - PAHC15 for a discount!)
Get Suzanne's book on Scoliosis & Spinal Asymmetry, (use code - SAS15 for a discount!)
Check out the videos that Suzanne mentioned HERE
Find a Neuro Studio Teacher Near You
Connect with me on Instagram
Connect with me on Threads

Meghann Koppele Duffy: Welcome to Three Questions where critical thinking is king, and my opinions and research are only here to support your learning and hopefully deeper understanding. Hey, I am your host, Meghann, and I'm so honored you clicked on Three Questions today because I have a very special guest and her name is Suzanne

Clements Martin. And I am going to assume I pronounce that wrong, so can you say it for everybody? It's Suzanne Clements Martin. Suzanne. So I didn't do too bad now. No, no, no. Yeah, it could have been better. I like to blame my New Jersey accent, but it's, you know, it's a tough pronunciation. Well, welcome to the podcast.

I'm so grateful you're here. 

Dr. Suzanne Clements Martin: Thank you. Thank you for having me. 

Meghann Koppele Duffy: And we have never met before, so it's a pleasure to meet you. 

Dr. Suzanne Clements Martin: It is, it is. And you know, and I see you and I've, you know, followed you for a long time on the neuro studio and so it is really wonderful to meet you. 'cause I hear, you know, just mega good things all the time about it.

And so I really appreciate the work that you do, which is in, in some ways very similar to, you know, to what I do is working with the special populations. And so, you know, I, I feel that there's a good chance that we have like minds. Yeah, 

Meghann Koppele Duffy: I know. And that's why, uh, same to you and same about you. I was talking to one of my mentees, Hannah, and she's like, oh, she's wonderful.

You'll really like her. Um, which isn't always a guarantee, but you know, that's, it's a pleasure when you can also like a person. So as always, when I do these interviews, I am going to put her full bio down in the notes because two minutes doesn't give it justice. How many years have you been in the movement industry?

Well, you know, it depends on how you count it. Count from the beginning. 

Dr. Suzanne Clements Martin: Where'd it start? Yeah. Well, you know, well I've been in, in exercise and dance almost all my life. Um, but you know, I think as an actual teacher, I started about age 20 and I hate to say it, I'm 70 now. So, you know, so I have about 50 years of actually kind of teaching in movement.

But you know, I've been in Pilates for about 40 years. 

Meghann Koppele Duffy: Nice. And that's kind of the same for me. I started teaching when I was 19 or 22 in college. Right. So there's not many of us who, so this is your first job? 

Dr. Suzanne Clements Martin: No. 

Meghann Koppele Duffy: Meaning like movement. 

Dr. Suzanne Clements Martin: Uh, you mean like when? Long time ago. So that was my first job in teaching ballet when I was about 20.

Yeah. And so then, um, then from there though is that, uh, you know, I have two, uh, degrees in dance, but then after that I became, you know, a fitness trainer to, to, to be one of my five jobs is supported me. And so I got ACE and a CSM, um, as a trainer, and then actually right around that same time as I got.

Invited to join the staff of the St. Francis Hospital with Elizabeth Larkam uh, in the late eighties. And so that was pretty, 

Meghann Koppele Duffy: so you, you have known Elizabeth Larkam. That gives me a good segue because yes, Suzanne is one of the contributing authors of this Pilates Bible. I always have to look at the name because it's a long one.

Pilates applications for health conditions. Right. And she has written the chapter on scoliosis and spinal asymmetries, which is super important. And I mean, you know, Pilates, you talk about the spine. So we could talk for days about movement, but I wanna get right into question one. So in your chapter on scoliosis and spinal asymmetries, you emphasize an individualized approach, which obviously I love rather than like a standardized protocol, which there's a lot for scoliosis, but my question is a little bit more personal there.

What assumptions do you think a lot of teachers or practitioners make? About dealing with scoliosis in spines. So what assumptions do you think they're making that lead to them wanting a protocol rather than an individualized approach? 

Dr. Suzanne Clements Martin: Okay. This is a can of worms. 

Meghann Koppele Duffy: I, I love worms. 

Dr. Suzanne Clements Martin: You have no idea what you just said.

'cause, um, you setting you 

Meghann Koppele Duffy: up, it's called a, it's called an assist. So now you're gonna dunk it. 

Dr. Suzanne Clements Martin: Yeah. Right. Is the thing is that's really, um, really disturbing. Is that. There, I mean, there's so many ages. I mean, it's, it's an equal opportunity kind of condition. And so, uh, it, it, it fits so many different things.

And so the problem is, is that I find a lot of, um, floods, instructors come and actually physical therapists too, with like a deer, you know, a headlight in the eyes and they're scared to death to do any side bending and any rotation. Um, so it's, it's similar to the osteoporosis problem. When I've had people, the fear mongering, it's like anybody over 50 should never forward flex against.

It's like, whatcha you gonna like stand in a straight jacket? And 

Meghann Koppele Duffy: you, and that's true. Not to interrupt you, you have 

Dr. Suzanne Clements Martin: to make sure, you know, we're not gonna hurt anybody. Of course, of course. But, but the thing is, is that it's not a one size fits all approach. And so one of the things that has been, uh, popular in, in, um, most definitely in the Pilates world is that, um.

Is, is that there's a tendency to just say, this is what you do for a two curve, three curve, four curve. What does that mean? I mean, what's the age group? And so, um, and so that's why like in my book, I tried to separate it out between, um, kind of youth and then older people. And, and I just came from Singapore teaching where I did a whole course of degenerative scoliosis, and that's a whole other can of worms where then I really go into the pathologies and that's when you really have to like, you know, be concerned.

Uh, however, it's really disturbing, especially at my age, to find out, um, there's actually research to show us that people who are non-symptomatic mean no pain, kind of not being, not having a good window of function, I would say is that just when you go through the decades of, of just the, uh, what statistics show, of what the problems are on the spine, especially when they get to about age 60, I mean, guaranteed degeneration of the discs, I mean, guaranteed.

And then not only that, that spinal listhesis, which is a slippage of the vertebrae to, for the front, um, you know, this, that could be to the front. It can to be to the back. It could be to the side. When it goes to the side, that's when people actually then start to not be able to walk and things like that.

But, but so everybody's not in that category. And, and so, and I do have some older clients, 'cause you know, I'm older, so I tend to attract older people. And, uh, and don't, I mean, I think a lot of us, you know, when it seems I teach these courses, everybody's saying, oh, she's fine. But you know, I have a 90-year-old that she can't, you know, she has osteoporosis, she has two hip replacements, she has buck teeth.

And she is blind in two eyes. It's like, wait a minute. So I mean it's, you know, pain in her picky toe, left throat, just do head work. Whatever you do, it's like, just guess. Yeah. But, but anyway, so I mean, I think the, the, um, the approach that I try to take is actually look at somebody, and that is true. It is helpful to know what's a general seeker, you know, which is just kind of, um, a side bend that goes.

Across many regions of the spine, the regions, so then the cervical, the thoracic, the lumbar, the sacral, and the coxs. And then, then the, you know, with the S-curve. And frankly, everybody says, well, almost everybody's an S-curve, or they'd be leading sideways. I mean, some of the worst curves I've seen are like maybe about 80 degrees.

And, and one of the things that's really interesting is that in my, in my other book, which is, you know, spinal Symmetry and Scoliosis, 

Meghann Koppele Duffy: and, hold on, say the name of the book again, and we'll make sure we put it in the show notes. What's the name of the book? 

Dr. Suzanne Clements Martin: It's actually spinal asymmetry and scoliosis. Okay.

Functional solutions for spine, rib, cage and pelvis or something like that. Yeah. Um, and, uh, sounds good enough. Feel, find it. I can never remember the, what the title really came out to be, but, um, but the thing is, is, is that I think that many of us in our movement education fields deal with people who have, I hate to call it garden variety spinal asymmetry.

In instead of looking at somebody that has like a huge, forgive me for saying this, and I, I don't wanna be offensive to anybody, an actual deformity. Mm-hmm. You know, so there's a big difference. Like I, oh, don't 

Meghann Koppele Duffy: worry. I say much more offensive things. That was, that's fine. 

Dr. Suzanne Clements Martin: Um, but, you know, I think I have more of a functional scoliosis and so then people are surprised, you know, when, when I actually kind of do the scoliometer thing and then you know, it's going this way and that way and the other way.

And it's, and the thing is, is I think a lot of us have these kind of odd, oddball types of things. I know I have some structural issues in there, but having been a mover on my life, then I move. Well, and that's what I was gonna say, is that in my book is that I convinced this, um, and, and actually I can give you the, um, you know, I'm happy to give you the, the link for the videos that were in my book because when.

The publisher that I think that everybody 

Meghann Koppele Duffy: would enjoy that. Yeah. 

Dr. Suzanne Clements Martin: Yeah. Is is that, you know, some of it will make sense and some of it won't. Some of them are video, some of their, but it does have this one point that I call a montage of, I convinced a physical therapist to, um, to, to video some, some people at scoliosis doing sort of some functional things, like a step down, like a squat.

Just super basic stuff. And so only had like four people. 'cause he, unfortunately, he lived, it was a very far away, it could only get a couple of people to agree to go. But it was really interesting. So the person who wound up with the 80 degree curve, he's, and he actually writes to me and he says, listen, I don't understand.

She was the one with the biggest amount of, of thoracic scoliosis, and she was the best mover. Well, guess what? She's in Pilates, she's in yoga. You know, she's a ballet dancer. And she was somebody who really took care of herself. For decades. Yeah. That goes 

Meghann Koppele Duffy: to the assumptions that the amount of assumptions people make.

And I just recently just taught a, a little workshop, the neuro implications of scoliosis on reflex and stuff like that. And I said, guys, just because it's not an excessive scoliosis doesn't mean this can't apply to every client. So I love that you're teaching people whether this is the worst curve you've ever seen or the smallest curve you've ever seen, we might have to.

Address it. We might not. Let's see. The individual person, I love that. 

Dr. Suzanne Clements Martin: Well, I'm really glad you said that because that's also one thing that sets me apart is that I try to teach the courses from not just an orthopedic point of view where you're just trying to push the spine into being straight. Mm-hmm.

But that, but that also, there's a huge neurologic component. Oh, so you include visual and vestibular and reflexes. Yes. So visual and vestibular, and then also fascial. But Fosil gets into, um, because you use the tongue, for instance, I tend to fall down on the left. So when I'm doing, I mean, you have to pick and choose.

You can't, you know, make it climb. Yeah. You've got some cranial nerve stuff in there. I love it. Yeah. Is that, um, is that, I pull my tongue up to, to my right side. So then that's pulling the internal fascia to help me to like stop some of the, the, um, falling down on that, that area. But then that's also using some of my neurology of the hypoglossal nerve and, you know, you know, some of the cranial nerves and stuff.

Because then, you know, 'cause the head is not symmetrical too in scoliosis. Nice. 

Meghann Koppele Duffy: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And so, 

Dr. Suzanne Clements Martin: I mean, we definitely have all kinds of, um, things going on. But yeah, I, I definitely work with the eyes and, um, and, and just, you know, just the balancing of, of the body. 

Meghann Koppele Duffy: And do you find, so go back to the question is, you know, it's the assumptions that teachers have that they want a quick fix or they want a protocol.

So maybe a follow up question to all that, because as you said, we are opening a can of worms, is how can you encourage teachers that there is no protocol, you've got to dig in, you know? So what would you say to yourself at 20 years old or 25 years old, uh, you know, to say, Hey, dig in. 

Dr. Suzanne Clements Martin: Well, you know, this is a daunting kind of thing.

And so, um, I, I actually teach more from an evidence informed type of way. So in other words. We stand on the shoulders of many people who have actually investigated a lot of this. I mean, and, and so, you know, not everyone has to do this, is that, you know, I have spent a huge amount of time and money and resources, you know, to go and find out, um, what's the, the, the most recent things that we do know.

And there it's a, and so yes. So I think part of it is being willing and I think when you go into the neurological field, for sure. You are, you're definitely starting to step into the deep water, you know? Yeah. But all our, I 

Meghann Koppele Duffy: mean, everything we work with is evidence based. I don't, I I hope my question didn't seem like that we're ignoring the evidence.

I, I cus everybody with scoliosis is different. We can't just find a concavity. We've gotta look at the, the whole human. And I want teachers to know that your program approaches that and you know. Tries to harness that. Am I, am I, is that okay? I say that. Yes. Yes, yes. 

Dr. Suzanne Clements Martin: And, but I think that sometimes it's a really a steep climb for some people.

You know, especially here, here we go. We've got teachers that have gone through all this training to learn all the apparatus, to learn all the mat work, and to just get the exercises in their mind. And then suddenly we're asking 'em to go deeper into science. Yeah, that's fair. So, so it's hard, you know, and so I think that, um, I, I can say this for myself and I have a feeling it might be for you too.

I'm a little bit of an interpreter, so I, you know, that, um, I can, I do know how to look at the, at the literature and to look at who is putting what out there and to try to separate what is the marketing type of research and evidence and what. Is, what are things that we're starting to come to as consensus?

That doesn't mean that I definitely believe, you know, only following an evidence-based protocol. 'cause that's in pt, that's a major kind of, uh, issue And Oh, that's funny. When we're 

Meghann Koppele Duffy: looking even the, like again, I am completing writing my dissertation right now is, um, so I'm constantly looking at research.

Some of the things we're doing are not able to be measured. So the amount of cerebellum activation, my, my, my teacher was like, Meg, you can't actually do it. It's painful. Like, and I was like, oh shit. Well, I don't wanna do that to stimulate the cerebellum. So I, I'm with you. It's one foot in evidence-based, but don't let it blind you.

Dr. Suzanne Clements Martin: Exactly. Exactly. So, I mean, it's, and so the thing is, is, is that it, one of the things that I think is the absolute 100% strength of movement educators is that we develop our eyes for movement. And so that is something that really, and I, I hope that, again, I'm not hurting anybody in my particular field of physical therapy, is that I think that's one thing that really separates us out in a lot of ways is that the kind of movement aspects that, um, that a person who's trained in, in movement, uh, instead of, instead of ju I had to say just therapeutic movement because I separate, um, movement, you know, ac exercise into like somatics.

Correctives is where kind of physical therapy lies and, and then conditioning, you know? And so, um, I feel like it's helpful to try and move people through that and, and help them to sort and to, to go back and forth and be comfortable with that instead of just being in one world. 'cause you know, as we, I love that.

Yeah. 'cause 

Meghann Koppele Duffy: And could it, does a physical therapist have to be a Pilates teacher to take your courses? Oh, no, no. Okay, so that's good if you're a physical therapist listening to this. 'cause I know we have a lot of physical therapy listeners and I always say, 'cause you know, I can be hard on physical therapists, I can be hard on Pilates teachers.

Yeah. The people listening to this, you guys are part of the solution. You're not the problem. These are the critical thinkers, the people doing that. So that's good to know that you don't have to be a Pilates teacher to learn these scoliosis methods as well. 

Dr. Suzanne Clements Martin: Well, you know, the thing is too is that I would have to say having been in the field now, I've been in physical therapy for 30 years.

Is that it is enormously progressed. I mean, it really, really, really has for sure. And then, you know, things that were considered completely woo woo and out to lunch, um, are really starting to be looked at. And, you know, I definitely have some colleagues who are just really on the cutting edge of, of movement education.

And I can, uh, I just. Attended one online, you know, in California the other day. And I mean, they did just a, a superior job. Wanna give him a shout out? 

Meghann Koppele Duffy: Who is it? 

Dr. Suzanne Clements Martin: Um, you know, so it would be, uh, Claire Frank and, uh, all right, Claire Frank. 

Meghann Koppele Duffy: Good work. 

Dr. Suzanne Clements Martin: Yeah, right neuro, right Neurodevelopmental and then a Annette Caram and then also Tina Wang.

Now, you know, 'cause I'm writing a book on, uh, hypermobility at this point. And so yes, I was looking at their podcast and I'm also from. The, the dance world. And, and so I think for, um, for those of us that are lucky enough to have come from the dance field, that we do have that, you know, extra and people who were teachers in the dance field then have a little bit more edge in terms of being able to, uh, be better movement educators, if I can make that opinion.

Just because, uh, you know, we have to spend hours and hours and hours watching people move. And analyzing the details. 'cause you know, in order to be a good dancer you have to absolutely 100%. And that if you wanna be a good dancer or an elite dancer, you definitely have to, uh, focus on details. And so the details definitely make a difference in movement education.

Yeah, for sure. 

Meghann Koppele Duffy: So, moving on to question two, something when I was reading your bio or just, you know, kind of getting to know you better behind the scenes, um, I've seen you've taught internationally. Quite a few times, many times you just got back from Singapore. Um, even you've crossed discipline. So we talk about the physical therapy and, and I a hundred percent agree with you.

I've been out of, I didn't become a physical therapist in college, so when did I graduate college? 2004. So it's like 20 years ago. 'cause I didn't like the physical therapy model. It felt too rigid, too corrective, and I wanted more. So I did exercise science and somehow I'm here, but we're not gonna get into that.

But what I loved is you've also collaborated with other teachers. I also love that you gave some other teachers a shout out. The reason why I brought a bunch of the contributed authors on this podcast, this isn't the format for my podcast. I would love to see less scarcity mindset in the movement world and more collaboration.

So I've been asking all the teachers, some have give good answers, some have gave not so good answers, but it's their opinion. So how have you been able to. Cross disciplines. How could you encourage other teachers to do the same of sharing and shining the light on others and understanding it doesn't diminish your light, 

Dr. Suzanne Clements Martin: you know?

That is really true. I mean, another thing that I just happened to, um, happened upon was another man, I think his name is Ham. Who, who, um, and, and honestly, this is accessible to anybody who wants to, to look at these things. I mean, you know, it's, it, there's so much accessibility online now. Is that, uh, uh, and I just happened to see in, in the A PTA magazine that, that there was a course on pots, so postural, orthostatic, 

Meghann Koppele Duffy: mm-hmm.

Dr. Suzanne Clements Martin: Tachycardia, which just means the heart races when you stand up. So that's one. It's a phenomena in, uh, in heart mobility. And that's, uh, and, and frankly, scoliosis and heart mobility, it's kind of a, can really cross over you a lot, lot. Every 

Meghann Koppele Duffy: one of my EDS hypermobile pots clients all have spinal asymmetries, every single one of 'em.

Now I, I'm not trying to make generalizations based off just, I've seen a lot of clients, but I've just seen a lot of clients. I can't make any, you know, 

Dr. Suzanne Clements Martin: well, when the body is that loose, if you have any propensity toward scoliosis, it's gonna happen. You know, the, the 

Meghann Koppele Duffy: body, the brain is gonna figure out how to get to a destination somehow.

Right? Exactly. It might not be what you wanted. 

Dr. Suzanne Clements Martin: Exactly. But anyway, I mean, so, you know, I just thought, oh, I don't even know, need to know about pots. And, you know, one of the, I have, um, like five tracks on my. On my website of the kind of education I offer. And so cancer's been one of mine for a long time, although that's kind of taking a little bit of a back burner right now.

But I'm very excited 'cause I do have a mentee that I'm working with, but, um, but I need to, but POTS is also a part of what happens with cancer, with people going through cancer treatment for obvious reasons. I mean, you're taking a lot of, of medicine, you know, and your physiology all off. My dad's 

Meghann Koppele Duffy: dealing with it right now.

Dr. Suzanne Clements Martin: Yeah. So, um, but there was a physical therapist and I mean this guy, and frankly he works a lot with, um, with adolescents that get concussions. And then he was saying that that's another aspect of what can happen with concussion. And so, you know, this guy had some real concrete, you know, good ideas about how to make a progression.

Because I had read in the oncology world that yes, people can exercise with pots, but you have to kind of know. How to get somebody to where they can acclimate. And right now I'm working with a young, a young woman, and her major, uh, symptom from EDS is actually fatigue. She has like outrageous fatigue. So I've had a number of people have come through with that.

It's a similar thing with oncology and frankly, it's, it doesn't seem apparent sometimes, but in scoliosis it's, it can be similar because there's also research to show that people that even though there's not a quote unquote actual lung problem, like an emphysema or something like that. It's just that people with scoliosis tend to tire out more because it takes more energy when it's when you're out of like the cone of cone of, uh, stability.

And you're, but also, I mean, can't 

Meghann Koppele Duffy: even, even argue the proprioceptive chemotherapy affects proprioception, neuropathy, pots. These people have poor proprioception, so it's like your brain loses track of you when you move from here to there. You know, sometimes we overlook, and you've talked about that. I feel like sometimes we even overlook the obvious, right?

Where I've worked with many people with pots, sometimes just some simple eye exercises to set them up first. So it, it's so cool how all these things, it's like, I don't know. The more I know, I realize we're all doing the same thing just through our own voice and perspective. Right. 

Dr. Suzanne Clements Martin: Well that's why it's really great to see, like in these volumes, the amount of people who are in the Pilates field and people who, you know, were willing to come forward to show some of the work that they're doing 

Meghann Koppele Duffy: in a very hard time.

The, all these teachers, guys who wrote these chapters, it was over COVID. Yeah. All of our businesses imploded. I used to travel once a month. I bet you traveled a ton too. It was a scary time for business owners. So it was kind of one of these things that we all did with no financial, no. Um, none of us got paid, but that wasn't why we wanted to contribute to it and be part of, uh, a good product, which I think Elizabeth and Madeline.

It did, but it was a tough time. 

Dr. Suzanne Clements Martin: Yeah, it was a tough time. And actually I have to give them huge amount of credit for the enormous amount of work. I think a lot of people have no idea the amount of work that it takes to put the detail together and to make a, a really clean, um, publication like that. And we talked about in their 

Meghann Koppele Duffy: episode about language.

I love how they took the time to level out the language, do a glossary because. Sometimes people were saying things that didn't really make sense based off the words they used. So it's a pretty great, uh, book. 

Dr. Suzanne Clements Martin: Yeah. And so it was really hard to make it uniform. And, and then in the book too, is what they asked me to concentrate on was gait.

So that was the overriding theme throughout the whole book from what I understand. So, because they actually provided, um, us with, or me with an assessment. That was very specific. Didn't we all have 

Meghann Koppele Duffy: to do the same assessment based off, yeah. Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Mm-hmm. I wasn't sure if it was different for scoliosis.

Sorry, I didn't mean to ask a question. No, 

Dr. Suzanne Clements Martin: no, 

Meghann Koppele Duffy: but, 

Dr. Suzanne Clements Martin: and so that's, and that's one thing that I'm really happy about because that there's not a whole lot of information on the actually foot loading aspects. And so that's something I'm really interested in. So that's also one of the tracks that I teach is actually the foot management course.

And so you can do a huge amount influence the spine through the leg. And so, um, so you know, so for people who are like worried about, you know, is it a C curve, a, an scur? Is it a flack? Or they just have a flat spine? That's another condition. You know, everybody's all keen to, to kyphosis and things. But actually there's a flat spine which is actually almost worse.

And uh, so you know, so you start with the legs, you know, whenever you. You didn't doubt, you know, start with those legs and so we know footwork and Well, I wanna interrupt 

Meghann Koppele Duffy: you to have you repeat that for everybody. So I'm gonna summarize real quick. If you're scared of the spine, if it's overwhelming, you, this expert in scoliosis just said, chill out.

Start with the legs, move the feet. I love that. I feel like sometimes it could be a good starting point and you have a course on how to start with the feed for from your perspective. 

Dr. Suzanne Clements Martin: Yeah. And um, also, you know, like this woman came in the other day and, um, Brandon, she's like 81, and somebody sent her to me and said, I think you can help her.

Her walking. I was like, okay. She's all bent over, but she, she was a former exercise teacher and you know, she had all of this background, but I looked at her feet and she, she needed some serious foot, they needed some, some love, and I was like, oh my gosh. I was like, okay, next time we're gonna do a whole foot session, you know?

Just to get her used to it. And uh, and so I think people think, well that's just, you know, my feet are just there and there's nothing I'm gonna be able to do about it. And it's like, okay, yeah, okay, we are not gonna give you baby feet again. But the thing is, is that everybody can be improved, 

Meghann Koppele Duffy: so you can't magically fix feet, making them back to how we were at a baby.

So you're not guaranteeing baby feet, 

Dr. Suzanne Clements Martin: right. Too funny. So, you know. Okay. Yeah. No, but that was one of the main things that um, it was told to me when I was, um, when I was young and I first started having back spasms 'cause I had a fall and so I went to this osteopath and uh, and she, she was older than God.

And, uh, she was seeing people in her pool house. She was a retired obstetrician, and she had Wow. You know, become an osteopath. And, uh, and so here I'm crying and, you know, I'm all, I'm all in pain. I'm all distressed. I'm like, gonna die. And she, and she looks at me, she goes, you know, she says, you're a dancer, huh?

I said, yeah. She goes, your feet are kind of fat and flabby before a dancer. I was like, oh my gosh. That was my first indication that maybe I wasn't strong enough. 

Meghann Koppele Duffy: Interesting. Yeah. You know, so did you, now, did that turn you off to working on your feet or did that make you wanna work on your feet? I was just mystified.

Um, 

Dr. Suzanne Clements Martin: but I didn't know, you know, it took me a while to understand you could actually develop yourself. And so, um, so, uh, and, and so I mean, fortunately, I mean, dance is one thing and dance is hard. You know, hard 'cause you're, you're just trying to, I hate to say, make shapes and make expression. And, and, and, and, you know, and it wasn't, I didn't, it wasn't like an Academy Ballet thing at that time, you know, where I was in college.

And, um, so then I, I started to, when I actually started to study the kinesiology in my program and things, and I actually started to get results from the actual conditioning I was doing. I was like, OMG, you know, I can actually like get stronger. Oh, she can change. Yeah. And I was fortunate enough, or unfortunate enough to have, you know, a loose body had an extremely.

Uh, flexible spine where I can take my foot up over the back of, you know, my, from the back over to my head, all that kind of thing. It's while I'm staying on, which looks 

Meghann Koppele Duffy: nice on stage. Nobody's paying to see my leg on stage. I can barely lift it to there. 

Dr. Suzanne Clements Martin: But, yeah, well now it's a whole different story. But the thing is, is at that time I didn't understand it, you know what to do with it.

And so one of the things that was difficult is actually when I had all these spine problems, I became so frightened I became fit, but no one showed me how to keep. The flexibility of my spine very well, or to understand how to just work with the torso. So that's where Pilates filled it in, because I, I'm very small.

I'm five foot one and three quarters inches. I think I still kept my height. There you go. Um, and, uh, and then, you know, I don't, I don't do really well in gyms, you know, I don't fit in the equipment. Mm. Yeah. And so that's also, you're a dancer. 

Meghann Koppele Duffy: I'm not a dancer, but like, I don't, I come from a weight training background sports.

And I don't love all this linear movement at the gym. My body craves a little nuance, a little wig, a little rotation, you know? So I feel like, and is that what Pilates got you into movement more? 

Dr. Suzanne Clements Martin: Yeah. Is that one of the things I could get, I could get like the, the, the tension through the range. And so to me that was like a big light bulb.

And then actually it was in Pilates with Michelle Larson that I, that you know, 'cause I, I was going to people and. They'd say, we don't understand what's wrong with you. You're flexible. You can do all this stuff. And um, and, and then I realized like in her course, you know it, that she was doing a scoliosis course.

I was like, oh my God, I some, some kind of scoliosis. I'd go to people and say, can't you straighten up my rib cage? And like, no. And I was like, you know, I was like, I 

Meghann Koppele Duffy: please can 

Dr. Suzanne Clements Martin: you. 

Meghann Koppele Duffy: And it's so funny though, but what I keep hearing is, you know. The kind of limiting beliefs that were set up for you. It's like, oh no, I'm stuck with this.

This is it. And then when you were able to feel a difference in your body and that, that's kind of why I love working with neurological conditions or people who've had brain injuries or stroke because people like, oh, what you do is impossible. I'm like, well, shut up. I'm, I'm working right now. And I think, I love that you didn't set up limiting beliefs for yourself and was able to put yourself in positions where you were able to find that and offer it to other people.

I think it's important. 

Dr. Suzanne Clements Martin: Well, you know, it did really, um, I think it really scared the bejeebers out of me. Um, and so, um, being 

Meghann Koppele Duffy: in pain at a young age, you mean? 

Dr. Suzanne Clements Martin: Yes, yes. Yeah. And, and, and also then that was one thing that kind of stopped me from performing at a certain point 'cause it, you know, 'cause I was still in pain and I didn't understand kind of the hypermobility aspect of it.

Yeah, yeah. And so 'cause so those two things together and now I'm, I'm actually a lot better. I understand nutritionally. You know, environment. But don't you think 

Meghann Koppele Duffy: a lot of dancers are in that same, A few of my mentees through the neuro studio are all one's still current and former dancers. But using the techniques like it's, it's like, oh, I wish I would've known this when I was a dancer.

I feel like a lot of dancers stop 'cause it hurts. Yeah. Most athletes, I mean, my husband had to stop playing football at a high level because he, his tibia came off as femur, ACL, mcl, L pcl, total meniscus. So it's like it hurt to do things. I just feel like you know, guys, if you're somebody, if you're a human, not a movement professional, listening to, 'cause I know we have a lot of you guys is, don't let anybody set up limiting beliefs for you.

If it's not working, find someone else to listen. Find someone like Suzanne, who's understands scoliosis, understands hypermobility and stuff like that. Find someone who will think outside the box. And if you're a movement professional, find a teacher who speaks your language. Right. We'll put it in the chat.

I'm interviewing some other teachers. Find someone. Who will help you overcome all those things. I, I kind of love that messaging. 

Dr. Suzanne Clements Martin: We also, we all need someone to spot us to, you know, to look at us and, um, and I couldn't, I always had really hard time trying to convince some of our Pilates friends to do exchanges with me.

It's like they didn't wanna do it. I was like, but you know, I can go to ballet. I still go to ballet and they will fry my butt. You know, and tell me what I'm doing wrong. Some people don't, honey, not, it's like, okay. But do you think that's, 'cause some people don't like to be corrected, is that the reason why they didn't want it?

I, I think they were intimidated. I mean, you know, it's too bad. But one thing that I really do find really sad is when people say, you know, the scoliosis ones in my family and there's just nothing I can do about it. Oh, well that's true. But the fact is. Is that you can, IM improve it. And also there's this, uh, physician, this French physician I really like guy.

He's, uh, just retiring Jean Claude Demaro. And what he says is actually, it's like, it's like living in California. You're trying to earthquake retrofit your body for like, what, whatever's coming, you know? And so, and one is age, you know, whether or not you like it, you're gonna get older and things are gonna change just like it unfortunately did for Pilates.

You look at him at one age, you look at him at another age, he looks really different, you know? When he got older. And so, you know, we're just doing the best that we can to stay out of disability. And so that's my whole thing is, is helping each people to be, to be able, 

Meghann Koppele Duffy: yeah. My, I, one of my dad's mother, my Jewish grandmother, said everyone has their own mishigas, which means everybody's got their own shit.

And it's like, yes, you have scoliosis, but yes. We can help you sort that through. Some people have bad feet. Somebody ha some people have ms, some people are born with cp. Some people, you know, everybody's gonna have their thing, right? So having someone like you or some of the other teachers. Um, but for scoliosis, I think it's important guys that you go to someone who looks at scoliosis, not just from an orthopedic perspective.

So, yeah, and so that's my opinion. I gotta ask you one more question. Yeah. All right. This one's the most important. It might be, uh, so I'm a very proud dog mom. Oh, Charlie Bear is, we recently lost him, but we still have Willie. So still a very proud dog mom. And I saw that you are a proud mom of two Guinea pigs.

Dr. Suzanne Clements Martin: That's true. 

Meghann Koppele Duffy: Did I read this correctly? Mm-hmm. And what are their 

Dr. Suzanne Clements Martin: names? Well, one's onion. And the other one is eggplant, but we call her snake snack. Wait. And we call It's hysterical. Yeah. We call her snake snack because, um, actually it was in, I was in China about a couple of years ago when, um, when Bloy was dying.

So Bloy was a, a, a favor of mine too. And, um, so, um, Bloy was passing away and then, and Bloy was 

Meghann Koppele Duffy: also a Guinea pig. 

Dr. Suzanne Clements Martin: Bloy was a Guinea pig. Yeah. And so then my husband wrote to me and said, do you mind if I get another one? Because Onion is crying. You know, and I said, no, go ahead and get another pig. And so then he said, you know, he said, I rescued this one because she has red eyes and she'd probably be sold to be, um, you know, a snake for a snack, a snack for a snake, a snack.

So 

Meghann Koppele Duffy: we call it snake snack. That is so cute. Um, and it's so interesting you said that because what was my question for you? Is. How does observing animals influence your work or perspective on life? So recently when we had to put Charlie Bear down, it was, I said, this is how I wanna go. He was at the house and Willie, our other dog, who was always loved Charlie Bear more than life.

Charlie Bear tolerates Willie. Charlie Bear was a big golden retriever mix. Willie's a blue tick beagle, he's a beagle. So when Charlie was passing, Willie gave him space and he was literally on the couch kind of crying, and it was just watching them and how they interacted. He came and said goodbye to him.

I was like, we need more this compassion for humans. It really affected me. So sorry, I put in my story first. I, I really needed to share that. What is your, what is your opinion on animals? Has it shaped your life or your movement? What's with the Guinea pigs? 

Dr. Suzanne Clements Martin: Uh, Guinea pigs are, are really very, um, humorous animals.

But you know, the thing is they don't live really long. So we've probably had about maybe 15 of 'em in the time that my husband and I have been together. Um, 'cause we always, uh, we always replace one when one passes away. Um, and, um, so, and you know, they, it's, they, they die from a real variety of things really.

And they were, um, you know, they were a lot used in cancer, um, research. So many of them have had tumors. And also pure breeding is really bad for Guinea pigs. Oh. 'cause there are a lot of, um, you know, inbred and deformities that can happen. So we only have one purebred. Because his jaw was, uh, so misshapen that he basically kind of suffocated from that.

I mean, you know, it's like, so we like, but it's so 

Meghann Koppele Duffy: interesting and it's funny enough, beagles are used a lot in testing as well, and I wonder if it's also personality. What are Guinea pig's personalities like? 

Dr. Suzanne Clements Martin: Well, the thing, I think one of the reasons why they're used in research is because they have hair and skin like we do.

Meghann Koppele Duffy: Oh, interesting. I didn't know that. 

Dr. Suzanne Clements Martin: Yeah, they have hair and skin like we do, so that's why they're used a lot in cosmetic kind of research or skin research. And that's why, uh, also they have to have vitamin C daily and that's why Linus Pollen also use them for the vitamin C research. Uh, and also just they're easy to, um, to overcome, like as an animal to do research on.

That they're, uh, you know, it, it's, it's, you know, they might bite you, but you can pretty much, uh, and you don't wanna get bit by a Guinea pig. They, they really can be harsh or, yeah. But the, but the thing is, for the most part, they're pretty docile and we give up easily. Yeah. 

Meghann Koppele Duffy: It, it was just so funny when I read your bio, I was just surprised 'cause it was like, oh, I think, you know, it was like, oh, two Guinea pigs.

I was like, I need to know more about the Guinea pig situation. 

Dr. Suzanne Clements Martin: My husband got a Guinea pig when he was eight years old and he's had one ever sit. 

Meghann Koppele Duffy: Okay. And I don't mean to be rude. How old is your husband? 

Dr. Suzanne Clements Martin: He's younger than him. He's, he's actually 70. I'm a little bit older than him. 

Meghann Koppele Duffy: Oh, nice. So from eight to 70, he's always had Guinea pigs.

I like, love this. 

Dr. Suzanne Clements Martin: Yeah. And so I didn't understand it at first when I first met him, because, you know, and he, he did, they have dogs. They had dogs and cats and all. But somebody had given him a Guinea pig and he just had a fondness for him, I think. Just 'cause he was such gentle, so it was, 

Meghann Koppele Duffy: if you wanted him, you had to love him.

And the Guinea pigs, 

Dr. Suzanne Clements Martin: that's, and that's what his sister said to him, is that whoever you find is that she's gonna have to like Guinea pigs too. So it took me a little bit to warm up to it, but also we lived in such small studio apartments. 'cause that's what we could afford. Yeah, you could hide a Guinea pig.

Meghann Koppele Duffy: Now, were you, is this down? You said you're from New Orleans? Is that where you, and you're in California now? 

Dr. Suzanne Clements Martin: No. No. So, um, so I grew up in New Orleans and so then I, when I was, I love, I love how 

Meghann Koppele Duffy: you say it one more time, 

Dr. Suzanne Clements Martin: new Orleans. Oh, I love it. And so then when I wanted to go on a dance, either you go to the west coast or the east coast.

Okay. And coming from such a kind of a podunk area that I didn't think I could make it in New York, just. Living. I mean, I could have lived there, but it, it was, I I knew it was just like, it was too hard for me. Yeah. So to the west coast and I, I decided to stay in collegiate things 'cause that felt, that would be sort of protective.

I'm not that adventurous, but I met my hu my husband dancing. So that's, yeah. Is that, um, I went to an all girls college and we needed boys to dance. So, uh, and so, you know, I was in modern dance at that time and um, and so, um, he was invited to join our troop and he did, and he was my partner. That is so great.

So you haven't been able to shake him since? Well, you know, and that was important to me because my former boyfriend hated dance. Wow. I know. So I found that out kind of the hard way. 

Meghann Koppele Duffy: Yeah. 

Dr. Suzanne Clements Martin: But 

Meghann Koppele Duffy: I'm married to football coach, so it's, I, I am a football fan. My dad was a huge football fan. He had two daughters.

So that was kind of one thing that bonded Brian and I, 'cause like I actually could talk football, not in an annoying way, but, and he was like, huh. But I couldn't imagine him being married to someone who hated football. 

Dr. Suzanne Clements Martin: And my husband is a visual artist and so I have also a double degree in both printmaking and dance.

Meghann Koppele Duffy: What was the 

Dr. Suzanne Clements Martin: other degree? I couldn't hear you. I'm sorry. It's uh, printmaking. So cool. I should have been a painter, but I wound up being in printmaking 'cause I like the physicality of it. Nice. So silk screens, etchings, wood cuts, things like that. Do you 

Meghann Koppele Duffy: still do 

Dr. Suzanne Clements Martin: that kind of stuff? No. I had to make a decision when I moved to California.

I did bring my portfolio with me and uh, where I came from in Louisiana. They were so happy to have. Anybody participate that everyone was welcome in the studio. But when I went to Mills, which actually is kind of a very high level fine arts kind of, uh, department, they were like, you know, we don't have room for you here.

Oh, speech taken, no room. But my husband, when we moved here, he pulled my portfolio out. He says, you know, it's time. And actually now throughout my whole house is, is my art. 

Meghann Koppele Duffy: That's amazing. So you can have other hobbies outside of movement. That's great to hear because again, I started teaching Pilates and movement by mistake in college.

It was my work study and got a master's. It just kind of fell in and I'm like, it was kind of my hobby that became a job. So I was like, you know, I need to find other hobbies that I can also do. 

Dr. Suzanne Clements Martin: Yeah. And so for me, um, the performing arts were the dance world. I'm now, I'm involved. I was a perform, I was a physical therapist for a, for a s new one ballet in, in San Francisco for about over 25 years.

And now I found another group here that's a small company that now I'm starting to work with Sam. So I really liked that very much and nice, I'm a gardener. I love growing things, and I have a butterfly garden, a pollinator garden out in front. 

Meghann Koppele Duffy: Do you watch tv? Do you sit still like, tell us something lazy about you?

Come on, give us the, give us the gossip. Well, I, well my, you know. Oh, I see, I see a guilty pleasure. You're about to tell us. Go for it. I love Hallmark. I'm sorry. So is my mom. Okay. My dad, he, he's very funny. He'll watch it with my mom. He's like, let me guess. They've fallen on some hard times, but it's Christmas and everything will 

Dr. Suzanne Clements Martin: work out.

Right, exactly. And the way I fell into it, I was think it was flying back from China and it just, it was at Christmas time and it was like on, it always is. I was like, oh my gosh, I can't believe I watched every Christmas movie. 

Meghann Koppele Duffy: It's so funny. I love that. I had said too, I, I think it was too Elizabeth, I'm like, let's elevate small, talk to medium, give some gossip.

And she, uh, but, uh, so Hallmark movies. So we now know your guilty pleasure in addition to all your. Other accolades. So, 

Dr. Suzanne Clements Martin: but also, but also I love baking. Yeah, I love baking too. So I did a baking class in Paris when I was there recently. I did one in Italy and that I even did one here in Atlanta. 

Meghann Koppele Duffy: Oh, yeah.

Which is the best baking? Italy, France, or American? 

Dr. Suzanne Clements Martin: Well, you know, Paris was really interesting because the pronunciations, you know, and, and, uh, Bagge, I mean, ugh. Good stuff. 

Meghann Koppele Duffy: I like baking because. It's a cup of this, a cup of that I like. It's more of a science cooking, stresses me out. My older sister's like just salt and pepper.

It's a taste. And I'm like, I don't know what it's supposed to taste like. She's like, well, what do you like? I'm like, I don't know. I've never had it before. And she like laughs at me. She's like, oh my God, you're the most, but we all have our things. So. Thank you so much for answering my three questions and a few A, B, and C's in there.

I feel like we could talk for years, but if you haven't already gotten your book, again, it's a great little resource if you're a Pilates teacher or movement professional. Again, it's kind of case studies, it's got little nuances, author's notes, um, and I like that Elizabeth and Madeline, because I would put some things in there.

They're like, we'll add that as an editor's note as well. Um, so I just, I really. I think it's a really great start for the Pilates community and, uh, grateful to Elizabeth Madeline for the rest of the teachers like yourself who participated. And it's an honor to be included in that group. It is. So thank you so much for being here today, and I hope this isn't the last time we speak.

Dr. Suzanne Clements Martin: Me too. Thank you so much for inviting me. I really appreciate it. 

Meghann Koppele Duffy: All right, well see you soon everyone. Okay. Bye-Bye everybody. 

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